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i got my first prescription free. call or cck to learn more. [ male announcer ] if you n't afrd your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. the longest 4g lte battery in a razr thin profile. with 32 hours of battery life that turns an all-nighter, into a two-nighter. the droid razr maxx hd by motorola. droid-endurance. droid-powerful. anything to help. good night. >> more than 1,000 students have gathered to steady liberty >> should these students even be in college. if they work as interns are they exploited? if they are here illegally should they get a quicker pass to citizenship? should they take drugs or drink? what should the rules be? >> a trip back to college. that's our show tonight. >> and now, john stossel.

>> i am in washington, d.c. for the biggest ever students for liberty conference more than a thousand students have come here to debate what the conditions needed for people to be free are and to prosper. one way some of these students prosper is by doing internships. most student now do them. how many of you have been interns? most. how many of you want to be? about all. how many of you do it or would do it for no pay? most everybody. i think that is a good thing. often internships are unpaid. one says it is is another says internships are

great. hue ross, what's wrong with internships? it's a voluntary exchange. >> let's be clear we are not talking any more about a sing eliel short term training and getting a job at the end of it. talking about doing this after graduation talking about it becoming a requirement in order to break into a whole range of white collar fields. >> before we get to a requirement which is another matter, let's say they do it a bunch of times. so what? they volunteer. >> the whole idea of a full's age for a hard days work the is being threatened by the threat of untirn ships and unpaid workers. regular workers are being replaced. >> because the college students are working for free they will take jobs of people who will be paid? >> increasingly students have no choice. internships are all that are out there. >> this sounds terrible. if you can get these kids to work for nothing kids won't get paid. it's abuse.

>> we don't have to argue about whether they should be paid. i would like for all of you to be paid. what is compensation? is that to be a line on your resume. it's compensation. if you intern it will probably help you with your career. hopefully if you are an intern for one of my news bureaus for the chronicles or chicago tribune. >> you help people find internships. >> i encourage students put them in new zero as interns. i give them two seminars a week about politics and make them better political reporters. >> none of these rich news organizations will pay? >> news operations here have been down sized to the point they are losing their own employees they don't have the money. >> so it is either we will have an intern and not pay them or not have an intern at all. >> i have to say i built my career on people like you. i mean i apologize if i am exploiting you but i didn't think i was. i needed research help, my

employer laughed at me when i asked him for paid people. he said you think we are made of money? i started asking at colleges. i was surprised many students were eager to come. but afterwards they told me i learned more from you working than from college, and i didn't have to pay you anything. i have to pay tuition to my college. it's the college ripping me off. not the internship. >> how much do you make, john? >> a ton. >> but not enough to pay 7.25 an hour to an intern? >> well, at that time i wasn't making much. if i had to pay i wouldn't have hired a college student i would have hired a full-time employee and these kids wouldn't have had the opportunity. >> why is it many of the best companies in america the googles and deloittes and so many others treat interns as an investment. they pay their interns they hire an overwhelming number of them. >> that's their right. >> you are taking the longer view. >> who are we donto decide for

of them. what about voluntary contracts between two people student and the company. if they both agree what business is it of government to interfere? >> the same law that protects interns is also the one that got 14-year-olds out of the coal mines? was that freedom of contract? there has to come a point where you have to understand what are the -- >> coal mines, 14-year-olds? >> this is the 21st century. >> i don't see what century matters. if you volunteer to go to the coal mines and your parents are okay isn't that part of freedom. >> i grew up as less liberal. i have become a libertarian democrat. there are about 6 of us libertarian democrats. i used to be the press secretary for the democratic party. i understand the argument how we are exploiting workers of the world and they need to unite and have the backing of the government have the government demand john pay his interns. but why? these people are not so stupid

they cannot decide whether they are being exploited or not. it is a kong tract written or otherwise understood and we should not use the course of power to the state to demand you pay your intern. >> the power is being used. the last 40 years have been a libertarian's dream. that's why we have unpaid workers. >> you are both democrats. it is obama's -- if you are not going there has to be certain criteria. one is the employer der rives no immediate advantage of the intern. on occasion it's operations must be actually impeded. i have had earn terns impede my work i try to get rid of them. >> let me ask you, john, if fox wanted to do a news show we say we don't know how it's going to work out but why don't we throw you academic credit we will see how it goes and we will figure

out how to pay you. would you accept that? >> maybe not at this point in my career but it's my choice. that's what freedom is supposed to be about. >> guess who is exempted from this? government. the department of labor uses interns. the white house uses interns. >> only for-profit companies. >> this has been the law since 1947 the obama administration has done nothing but reiterate and reissue these basic issue. >> if this rule were enforced it would kill my program. >> you have questions? >> my name is christina web texas state university i am a dietician major. in order to become a diet tiggs we have to do an internship. >> are they unpaid? >> most except government ones. >> she is forced to do it. that's by her college.

sounds like the college is ripping people off. >> this is the real question here. it's not whether she should be paid or shouldn't be paid it's whether she had you hshould hav right to decide what compensation is. is compensation training, is compensation a line on your resume? i don't want these people to have the under the government the power of the state telling them you can't do an internship unless you are paid. >> do any of you think you can't decide for yourselves whether want to be paid with dollars as opposed to a line on your resume? are you that stupid? i know you are not. i've woshlg worked with 20 somethings for the past 20-years you know whether you are wanting to volunteer your labor important. >> i go to the university of maryland. coming to this from an economic perspective markets tend to move toward equilibrium that is to find the correct price for many different things maybe being one of them. we know if a person is being

paid below the wage he would get on the market for true value then another company will see the extra profit he would raise his wage to capture that profit. why does this work so well on the noninternship market but all of the interns are being paid nothing how come the market suddenly doesn't work? could it be as mr. stossel said they receive nonmonetary compensation such as the line on the resume? >> it's become a requirement. it's not literally a requirement for completing a degree it's something that has become a virtual gateway or requirement. a pay to play system where you have to be able to do this. i think it's having a distortion nature reeffect on the market and it means all sorts of people are going towards it and engaging in a race to the bottom that is leaving us with record levels of youth unemployment and record levels of unpaid internship. >> did you have bad internship experience? you paid you were an unpaid

intern? >> you have done well you have a book that exploits the perceived rather than real problem of exploited interns. i think again you have this mentality of somehow these people are being exploited. i think they have enough sense to make decisions for themselves. >> yes, ma'am. >> my name is eam. i am a college dropout because i am around internship success story. what do you think about something like that? i own a business now because the college was literally teaching me nothing and my internship taught me everything. >> i am glad yours did. i am glad some work. more are getting caught into an internship trap they are becoming serial interns doing 3, 4, 5 or more of them and youth unemployment is at record highs. we need to rethink the system even though they are a good example. >> we could ban that and it would ban the so-called

exploitation it would also ban opportunity. thank you ross, keri michael. why are many of you in college? many of you are getting ripped off. we will talk about that when we come back. when we come back. ♪ [ male announcer ] this is a reason to look twice. the stunning lexus es. get great values on your favorite lexus models during the command performance sales event. this is theursuit of perfection.

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>> we are back with college students when the students were liberty. hate to say it to you students you are suckered if you pay college tuition you are getting ripped off. that's probably not fair. some of you are learning a lot. some will get jobs because of your education, but many of you will pay 200,000 dollars and get little more than debt. the reason dale stevens founded the web site uncollege.org. how to get ahead without college. in the book half of your education is sub titled ditch the lectures save ten's of college and learn more than your peers ever will. what do you mean learn more than your peers. there's a reason they go to

college. >> they go to college because you are told to. society says this is what you need to do in order to be successful in your life. you have to learn exactly what they tell you not necessarily the things that you want to learn or interest you. >> i just wanted to learn comic books and about girls, i wouldn't have learned anything if i didn't have a college directing me. >> maybe you would have started a comic book about girls. >> people go to your web site and tell you you helped me drop out and i am doing better? >> we have a community of 10,000 people around the world who are doing creative things with your education instead of going to school. there's people like hunter payne dropped out of university of florida and is an artist getting murals commissioned things like that. tan gnaw summers who developed college commuputers. things doing interesting things with their education without having to pay the high cost of

college. >> you did this yourself? >> i left school when i was 12 i didn't go to middle school or high school. >> they let you leave school at 12? >> they weren't fond of the idea but i presented it as hey i am 12 if i leave school for the year what's the big loss. if i go back a year later school will still be there. >> you even took college courses you found you could go to a campus and walk on and not pay? >> at the local community college professors were more than happy to have students who were genuinely interested in learning more than phappy to share their knowledge. >> i would have goofed off. >> that's okay. >> students you have comments or questions? >> i am heidi. i go to school at madonna university in michigan. >> where? >> madonna university. yes like the material girl. i am going to school for nursing

and i have a lot of students who are going to school for pre-med or the sciences and don't you feel like it makes sense for somebody to go to school and learn basic human anatomy and all of these other classes it's sort of essential to a medical profession or even if you are going to study biology? >> image if you are going into surgery and you were given the choice of being operated on by someone fresh out of medical school or the nurse who has been watching for 20-years. i would rather have the nurse. there is background knowledge that is handy to have while you are operating on someone but the idea that all of that comes from the classroom i think should be changed we should spend a lot more time being practical in the real world. >> that makes sense but at the same time if you don't have that background knowledge and you just know what you do, sure you have been experiencing these things first hand but that doesn't mean you know what

happens if you do something slightly wrong. you don't know how to fix your mistakes because you didn't get the basic technical knowledge that you would have learned in school. >> dis the best way to learn tht knowledge is sitting in a room with 400 students taking biology or could we get that knowledge from a cheaper more efficient form. >> i am ryan jackson just graduated from a school in indiana. i once witnessed an argument where a student defended her kinder studies degree for engineering degree. i can't say it's not a bavalid degree it's not the same thing. where does that misconception come from? is there a pinpoint source and what should we do to make sure people don't waste a thousand dollars for people that aren't going to use? >> they did a great college major that has the most psychology. >> on that note since i majored

in psychology next question? >> amy caper i go to york college of pennsylvania. isn't your method of schooling only really practical if you want to start your own business or something like that? i want to be a teacher. i have to go to school. i won't be certified to teach if i don't. >> you are making an articligum against the credential required for teaching. >> i would love to drop out of college i think it's a waste of money but i can't teach if i don't. >> one thing you should consider teaching at a private school. >> thank you dale stevens. coming up drugs and drinking and whole foods. but before we get to that who should be allowed to come to america. flushing flushing that's next. i have a cold, and i took nyquil, but i'm still stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't unstuff your nose. what? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels speeds relief to your worst cold symptoms

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>> we are back at the students for liberty. immigration. 12 million people are here illegal lie what should we do about them and what should the future rules be. libertarians say let more people in legally. open immigration created america. most immigrants work hard many bring valuable skills. on the other hand some people do want to kill us. now that america is a welfare state some people want to come here to freeload. bob dane worries about that. he is from the federation for america immigration reform. he will debate economist he says it should be easier to come here illegally. of course you say that you sneaked in here from france and just became a citizen. congratulations. >> yup. >> this is america. we should let more of your foreigners in. >> because immigrants whether they are high scakill or low skl they are a gift an economic gift

to this country. >> not just a gift. some freeload. >> i mean there is some small cost that when you take under consideration the tremendous work they do when you look at the data they even increase wages for americans. >> bob will want to debate you on that. before we get to that i want to go over this. you had to fill out this form to become a citizen which the whole process took you 10 years plus. the prospects seem ridiculous. a communist party the terrorist organization. >> that's a question coming from france, right? >> the french government communist. did you work for the nazi government between 1933 and 1940. if you did these things why would you even answer honestly?

have you ever been a habitual drunkard, a prostitute, married more than one person at a time, gambled illegally. why do they ask this stuff? is this supposed to make us safer? >> it's your federal government at work at the best. one of the libertarian thinkers a thinking man's ideology. there is a problem in the pure libertarian sense you have this idea that there should be an unrestricted movement of human beings under the trance global individual liberty. al qaeda thinks that's a dandy idea. >> keep al qaeda out. we agree on that. >> what about the liberty of the poor guy in america. struggling to find a job to keep a job to have wage credibility and he is in a downward spiral.

the application of liberty may not be a zero sum game. but let's face it there are consequences to excessive levels of unregulated immigration. >> some get paid less because you are here. >> i think the data is overwhelmingly showing that i increased, actually economic growth and but the issue is not even me. the beauty of immigration is like even low skill immigrants are good for this economy. they are benefitting not only high skill people like me or like all of the people working in washington, d.c. because they mow their lawn and they watch their children, but also lower skilled labors because this is not a zero sum game. the economy can expand. the data is very clear.

i think it is pretty much a no brainer. >> if an immigrant paints my house somehow we are all richer because the rest of us can specialize in something else? >> yes. one of the ways because he's cheaper he makes prices much lower prices of construction much lower for all of us. >> that mahas been my understanding by this flexibility of a labor market everything costs less we can get richer. >> what you are focusing on is the gross domestic product for example if we were to provide grants and amnesty to 12 million illegal aliens the gdp tote at that time total sum of all good and products would grow. >> they would stop hiding and report more income. >> that is an abstract method. it doesn't mean anything. it means squat for "john q" public. with the holy skilled low end jobs. the gdp is prizing. the opportunity for jobs and

meaningful growth of the middle class wages are eroding. >> what would you do with the 12 million people who are here? >> you remove them, john, as they are identified as by law and you otherwise allow them to leave voluntarily of their own accord if we had the incentives in place to dry up the jobs magnet they would self support, it would be attrition through -- a oo support them or make it so hard for them to work that they leave on their own. >> you dry up the veritable honey pot and the smoergs boargf benefits. in state tuition. >> my job and yours. >> the idea that we can keep people out who want to come in is one that in practices never worked. the government is spending more money on border security than it ever has, and people are still coming in. we can deport everyone. it's a myth that actually rests on the idea, it rests on the

idea that first the government can do anything correctly, and second -- (applause) -- and by the way if we are worried about the welfare state, i mean to me that is an argument to get rid of the welfare state rather than keeping people out. i mean if you are worried -- (applause) >> to be clear. immigrants if you are not legal you are not eligible for a lot of growth. for some you get automatic the kids if they are in school you have to pay for that hospital emergencies, food stamps, medicaid they are not eligible for that. >> they are not. by the way -- >> there is one thing i do wan to say. fair federation for american immigration reform and some of the others. >> acronym you win with fair. >> partisan 501 c 3. we are not anti immigrant than we are for someone who is on a diet is anti food. it is about regulation, it's

about control. >> these people rarely collect welfare they go on and pay taxes. >> i don't know where you are getting your data? the cost of i llegal immigratio is $113 billion a year in three yars. these were just federal costs healthcare, education and incarceration. >> these are the down costs. you are not including the up costs of them paying taxes and inventing things and starting google. >> here we are with libertarians and the focal point of libertarianism is small government. count me in but check your thinking. the fact is the overwhelming majority of 12 million illegal aliens are poorly skilled. >> how many of you are not in the united states? quite a few. how many would like to come here

and become citizens some day? fewer. just a couple actually. you want to keep them out. >> we all succeed when immigrants succeed. we have b-- here's what we need to do. do we want skilled immigration? you bet we do. what we need is less immigration and the immigration we do have should be skilled immigration. >> less than 1 and a half million is just half of a percent. >> should be the kwifl lent of the city of dallas. year after year after year. if you had more enforcement which is completely nonexistent. >> residents don't want to do a lot of those jobs. >> they allow me to go to work every single day. because -- >> on that note we are out of time. coming up drinking and drugs. but before we get to that, the founder of whole foods is here to talk about evil business. what's droid-recognition ?

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>> which are back for the liberties conference. i want to ask you students how many of you when you gradua thi you want to go into business? many. more than half. how many of you have friends or roommates who think business is evil? it pollutes -- >> you know and i know they are wrong. business has done more to lift people out of the misery and mud of poverty than any government poverty program ever had. it is still vl fied on college campuses like yours. i won emmy awards for government regulations stop them from hurting people. only after years of watching regulation fail all businesses

treat their customers well. business is voluntary. you make money by serving your customers well. on tv i make this argument with facts or statistics or try to but that's stupid. let's bring thinking john mackey. he started whole foods. conscious capitalism. explaining that nobility to people not just numbers. what do you mean? >> business is the greatest value player in the history of the world. businesses lifted billions of people out of poverty. consider the fact that 200 years ago 85 percent of the people li alive lived on $1 a day. that's 15 percent as we embrace economic freedom prosperity follows. >> i don't know how you would explain it to people. even my closest friends don't

understand. biep and large it hurts people. it hurts the environment. it takes from the poor gives to the rich. >> it is not true. business has lifted more people out of poverty in the last 200 years than anything that ever existed. business is a great value coordinator. the intellectuals they captured the naturety. that's greedy exploit tate tive and that narrative needs to be challenged and changed. >> your book is called conscious capitalism meaning most of the people in business aren't conscious of -- >> apparently not. they are not conscious of the great value they are creating. they are always on the offensive not able to articulate why business is good and how it is making the world a better place. >> what you are doing with whole foods some call it lefty silly feel good nonsense. what does it have to do with

conscious capitalism. you sold people on whole foods as if it was better. >> no one is forced to trade with our company. there is competitive alternatives in the marketplace. they believe they are getting value and exchange. >> you have questions or comments from john mackey please come to the microphone. >> i am from southern california. my name is ryan. why can't we defend profits? why can't we look at the profit motives and defend that from a natural standpoint. do we have to pursue purpose as our ultimate goal doesn't profit have a place in our society? >> of course it does. we should defend profit but not defend only profit. we need to defend the profit. >> the larger communities we are a part of. >> could you convince fellow students defending profit. people think of profit as he made profit i must have lost

something. >> usually once you talk to them about how business is a voluntary exchange of two mutually agreeing parties i have a lot of success when i sit down with someone and explain to them it's okay for someone to make a personal profit. if they are offering a good or product somebody else wants. >> on your book tour you find peach are hostile to you. >> for the record i am running the profitable food company in the united states. i am not against profit. >> what's this pos tillity? you experience this on tour? >> most people belief in the zero sum game. someone is gaining someone must be losing. like sports there's a w loser. >> or politics. >> the great thing about

capitalism it's a win, win, win, win game. everybody voluntarily exchanging they wouldn't be made. i think that's the story we need to tell. >> my name is david from penn state university. what can we as student activists do on campus to help make students realize the benefits of capitalism? >> we can put things in historical context. it is due to capitalism. the average life-span 200 years ago was 30. 82 in japan. 200 years ago 90 percent of the people were illiterate now it's down to 14 percent. >> because of business. >> if you look at the whole history of human prosperity it is due to the invention of capital i am that lifted humanity out of the dirt.

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lause] >> we are back at the students for liberty conference in washington, d.c. where i am impressed a thousand of you choose to spend the weekend debating things like frederick hayek's idea and constitutional psychology. when i was in college i was more interested in alcohol and alcohol was legal and the drinking age was 18 buchlt n bu it's 21. most college students are younger than that. of course drugs are illegal. so students, i assume none of you ever drink or uses drugs, right? i don't want to incriminate yourself. your parents may be watching. how many of you think that most college students break the drug or alcohol laws? just about everybody. it shows special correspondent kennedy with a tv personality at mtv when she was your age. she was 20. you grew up in the music business and there was no law

breaking drug use there i assume? >> there was none because i made the choice to be streeted which was very boring for me, but there were drugs and alcohol and dare i say marital relations by unmarried people around me i didn't participate in. >> you were very straight. you were 20-years old but you were at mtv and musicians would ask you for drugs? >> i am glad you asked me, john. i wrote a whole book about the 90s and mtv and that era. there's a whole chapter dedicated to rock stars who tried to buy drugs from me. >> what would they say? >> you know where i can find some heroin? look at me. i look like lilly pulitzer in a homeless encounter. >> take comments from students. questions or comments come to the microphone. >> my name is bill car i am from the university of illinois. i don't know if other people here felt the same way i did but

when i was in middle school or high school i felt like the bad kids or whatever had more access to things like marijuana than they did to alcohol. marijuana is the one that is illegal. i was going to ask do you know of any studies when you make things illegal and put them into black markets it is easier. >> they have done studies younger people middle school and high school who say it's much easier for them to get access to marijuana than it is toa alabam hall. >> let me ask you. which when you were under age which were easier to get alcohol or weed? >> refer magnet. >> i am eugene craig. how do we move the debate from a health issue debate to a personal right personal responsibility debate? >> expose people to rationalism. show your friends it is the war.

it opened my eyes to a lot of statistics and stories i wouldn't awa wasn't aware of. it is a great entry point for nonlibertarians and liberals. it rests on the foundation of freedom. it is worth fighting for because there are dire consequences if we turn our backs on it and listen to the party line that drugs are bad, okay? >> but stay there one second because i would like to also answer your question. my answer is, i struggled with this, too, when i was first learning about liberty and i said to this older stuffy guy at the institute, okay, i can see marijuana being legal, ecstasy, but the scary stuff, heroin, crack, it's frightening. what might people do? he said you own your own body or not? i would think self ownership

ought to be a powerful element. >> i think drugs should be legalized because the government shouldn't tell us what to consume whatnot. don't you think by doing it getting access to drugs i feel like the government would as we see start regulating it and wouldn't you think that would kind of -- >> that's an interesting question. it's something that divides libertaria libertarians. is it worth having it if we have regulation. there's a new hurdle to over come. i would say any time you can legalize, that is the first step. then you can have the regulatory debate later on. having drugs be illegal is down right deadly. it is dangerous. ron paul always made a good point which was heroin was made legal right now nobody wants to go out and gash their vein with

heroin. you need a syringe and rubber band. >> some people would and people who support the law say many more people would use that's intuitive but there's no evidence of that in portugal where they have de criminalized no more drug use or holland. fewer kids smoke. we won't be able to resolve this tonight. thank you kennedy. now i want to tell you college students that maybe you should drop out of college. it's a rip off, college. that's next. next. [ kate ] many women may not be absorbing the calcium they take next. as well as they could because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food. my doctor recommends citracal maximum. it's all about absorption.

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love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. ♪ john:al >> finally tonight you could call me a hypocrite. tonight i trashed college, called it an expensive waste for many of you students, yet i have a good job and i got it because i went to college. my first boss believed hiring people who graduated from princeton, yale or dartmouth. i benefited from that credentialism. this belief that college degree is evidence of a certain level of skill or knowledge. some employers believe that. but i was a lousy student. my classes were mostly lectures of pompous professor droned on. i retained pairly enou-- barely enough what he said or the reading to pass tests but i didn't really learn much in college. i learned about alcohol, poker,